Mozilla

People of HTML5 – Divya Manian

HTML5 needs spokespeople to work. There are a lot of people out there who took on this role, and here at Mozilla we thought it is a good idea to introduce some of them to you with a series of interviews and short videos. The format is simple – we send the experts 10 questions to answer and then do a quick video interview to let them introduce themselves and ask for more detail on some of their answers.

Divya Manian Today we are featuring Divya Manian, Web Opener at Opera Software.

Most likely you came across Divya because of her involvement in HTML5 readiness and HTML5 Boilerplate. She is available on Twitter as @divya and is very much involved in the CSS standards working group.

As you will see in the interview, Divya is a very pragmatic person when it comes to web standards and has a big passion for educating developers instead of woo-ing them.

The video interview

You can see the video on any HTML5 enabled device here (courtesy of vid.ly).

10 Questions for Divya Manian

1) I feel that right now is a terribly exciting time to be a web developer. Would you agree? What gets you really excited about the new tech we have to play with?

Definitely. These are exciting times for a web developer. You have new tools to work with almost every other week and what your page is capable of doing has expanded significantly from just delivering static content to enabling real-time media streaming and more. We also have very strong developer tools for each browser: Opera’s Dragonfly, Chrome’s Developer Tools, IE Developer tools in addition to the original trail blazer Firebug. So, it is simultaneously easier and harder to develop for the web.

2) Back in the days we very much preached separation of concerns as the right way to build web products. HTML is for structure, CSS for look and feel and JavaScript for behaviour. It seems to me that with new technologies this strict separation is blurring a bit. We can generated content in CSS and animate and transform. Some HTML5 elements do nothing without JavaScript (canvas being the big example). Do you think we need to re-visit our best practices?

Yes, the new features do definitely make you think harder about what you put where, but they do enable a similar separation still, except there are nuances to be aware of when you do the separation.

For example, I would consider animation with JavaScript as a way around the roadblock of not being able to do natively. Browsers are in a better position to control most of the animations that we require (animations for gaming are slightly different ballgame), and doing them natively would get us better performance in the long run.

Personally, for me maintainability and writing something readable and that works well and efficiently is more important than just being driven to compartmentalise your code into HTML/CSS/JS.

And definitely we do need to revisit our best practices every so often because technologies change and our best practices need to change with them, none of them are enshrined in stone and we should keep them relevant to our current set of features/technologies.

3) In your post “This revolution needs new revolutionaries” you point out that a lot of the people who drive the web today are not the known luminaries of web design. Do you see a complacency in our advocacy of web standards?

There are two concerns for me in that post:

1. we are not hearing enough from people who have to deal with creating web applications that work in areas with poor internet connections, censorship, with content in languages that are not popular.

2. There are not enough do-ers who are talking, we are hearing from the same people again and again on similar topics.

I feel strongly about both, but more so about #2 because it impacts every web developer all over the world. There are changes that are occurring that most of them are unaware of, because word does not get out. I think we should do our best to encourage those who do actively seek to create tools, and help fellow web developers or work on interesting challenges for the web to speak and inspire rather than those who are known for their speaking abilities because ultimately we want people to use/work with what is best for the web and not just be informed of what was news 5 years ago.

4) I found lately that collaboration is getting easier and easier. Tools like github, JSBin and JSFiddle allow you to talk about code and get your readers to fix and change things with you. I did that lately with getting bullet proof 90 degrees turned headlines for example. Why do you think not that many take advantage of that opportunity?

I would be hesitant to say not many are taking advantage of these tools. They are, but it is true that not everyone is on the bandwagon yet. Github is certainly the most gentle and social introduction to version control you can get, but a lot of web developers are not programmers and have not seen enough pain and horror to know why version control systems are useful. It also requires knowing about what version control systems are, and how to use the command line (a bit), which might be scary for those who are just used to designing with IDEs or TextMate.

5) CSS seems to be moving in leaps and bounds right now. I for one am very excited about the CSS element property which allows to take screenshots of elements. Are there any lesser known extensions you are fond of and use?

I am not a big fan of vendor prefixes, and would rather see them quickly unprefixed rather than see more of the prefixes populating stylesheets more and more.

That said, I do like a lot of the new properties that we are experimenting with. We have the obscure tab-size which allows you to control the width of the ‘tab’ character in your content. Pretty useful when you are displaying code.

Opera also introduced the @viewport which will let you set the viewport from within your CSS rather than using meta tags (like <meta name=”viewport” content=”width=320″>). I think viewport belongs to CSS rather than markup, so I would love to see it gain adoption.

Some of the less known properties such as box-sizing (unprefixed in Opera, IE 8+, Safari 5.1+, Chrome, prefixed in Firefox) are also invaluable, as they let you control your box model, which is definitely a revolutionary step from the dark days of trying to work with separate box models.

6) When we had a longer chat before this interview we discussed that there seems to be a disconnect between what people show on stage at conferences and what people can use these days in their day-to-day jobs. Do you think we should remedy this? More hands-on stuff for people to use now rather than a “look what is possible” approach?

I think what gets shown on stage is partly entertainment and partly information. I think it is hard to show “real hands-on” stuff without diving deep into it and losing half the audience while doing so. We need a balance for sure.

7) When writing CSS these days I get very annoyed about having to repeat a lot of code with different browser prefixes. Animations are the worst with all keyframes having to be repeated. Do you use any preprocessors like SASS or LESS? What do you think of that approach?

Yes, I was/am an early fan of Sass. I have been using it for 2.5 years (a lot less now as I do not deal with as much CSS as I would like to). I certainly think Sass/LESS would be the way to go forward for any web developer right now. They make CSS a lot more powerful and attempt to bring in programming paradigms that CSS sorely lacks. Attempts are being made by Tab Atkins at Google to bring these in a form of a proposal to the CSS WG, and hopefully we should see some form of support in the browser.

I would definitely recommend doing it on the server side though, doing JIT compiling of such code would be such a disaster for performance.
Especially today with so many vendor-prefixed extensions, not using such preprocessors would only cause more harm than not.

8) You work for Opera, the browser that did implement the most of the HTML5 form elements. Why do you think others are reluctant to do the same? Do you think HTML5 forms are ready for prime time yet?

It is certainly not true that others are reluctant. Chrome is pretty close to Opera in terms of support, and Firefox and IE10 are have various levels of support too. Yes, HTML5 forms need to be used with polyfills as of the moment, but I cannot wait for full support to land on all browsers so we can get beyond validating forms on the server.

9) I get a feeling that there is a general fatigue of semantic matters in the HTML5 world. Showcases have no HTML at all or meaningless elements like DIVs as buttons and so on. Is it just not sexy enough when we can rotate things in 3D and make sounds?

I am tired of semantics, too, really :) I think there is more to HTML5 than discussing when to use a section or a div or an article or an aside. Semantics are good to know about and learn to use, but we have had 15 years of talk about semantics surely we can go beyond that and learn about all the new stuff that occurs in HTML5 that will allow faster/more performant way to provide better experiences for your users.

10) If you have a friend who just wants to start with web development, what would you tell them to do and go to? What is the most efficient way to get people hit the ground running these days?

I would ask them to first hit the Opera Web Curriculum which has now moved to W3C – it is a wiki now so everyone is welcome to contribute to keep it up-to-date and relevant. Then I would highly recommend they refer to explanations and tutorials at the Mozilla Developer Center!

Photo by Chris Casciano

Do you know anyone I should interview for “People of HTML5″? Tell me on Twitter: @codepo8

30 comments

Comments are now closed.

  1. Ashish wrote on August 30th, 2011 at 06:31:

    Here are few HTML5 people to follow

    http://www.devchirp.com/tag/html5

  2. John Foliot wrote on August 30th, 2011 at 11:26:

    @divya
    > but we have had 15 years of talk about semantics surely we can go
    > beyond that and learn about all the new stuff that occurs in HTML5
    > that will allow faster/more performant way to provide better experiences
    > for your users.

    Just a gentle reminder that using appropriate semantic markup is *THE* way to provide a better experience for your (non-sighted) users. By all means learn the new stuff, but not at the expense of the basic stuff.

    Love, JF

    1. Paul Irish wrote on August 30th, 2011 at 13:34:

      John, but how about the common recommendation of using b, i, small, or strong instead of a styled span? AFAIK, they provide no additional benefit to non-sighted users.

      Perhaps an even better example, in order to be conformant, screen-readers shouldn’t apply implicit banner/contentinfo roles to header/footer elements. Which means they carry as much semantic value as a div.

      Those are some of the reasons I have doubts that using appropriate semantics always have real-world value.

      1. karl wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 00:26:

        just a little context comment ;) Real world is a meaningless expression if you do define the context of your real world. Your real world might be entirely different than mine in the sense we have different cultural assumptions about it.

        Now on the semantics topic. Instead of focusing about semantics as a general bag. Take each elements and go through them and what they are used for, in which contexts they are useful. In the view of someone who is focusing only on browsers some elements will have more weight, for someone focusing on writing contents for specific purposes, the usage/relevance weight will be more or less important.

        It’s why the debates are going round. People do not talk about the usage and the context they are into and generalize to the rest of the communitieS with their own assumptions.

        1. karl wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 00:27:

          if you do NOT define…

  3. Joey wrote on August 30th, 2011 at 18:10:

    I totally agree with Divya’s last words : the MDC is my favourite ressource for Javascript development. Great infos, very useful infos about various browsers implementations, good examples and even served by a great page design making the articles pleasant to read.
    A must.

  4. olivvv wrote on August 31st, 2011 at 06:30:

    “1. we are not hearing enough from people who have to deal with creating web applications that work in areas with poor internet connections, censorship, with content in languages that are not popular. ”

    this is very true. Currently most of the the internet is broken for dial-up users. Most major websites just dont load. We had the “css naked day”, we should have the “dial up web day” too. Web performance is not just about having things loading fast for users with great connections, it should also be about things loading ok for users with poor connections. Sometimes the fixes are quite easy, just changing some server settings in order to have the server not to break the connection when the client is taking a long time to download a big image.
    It is normal for a dialup user to wait 40sec to load a page, but it is not normal to have to reload it 5 times in order to have the cache filled and be able to finally load the whole page. As we build the web of tomorrow, we should also repair the web of today and yesterday. Some areas of the world will be stuck with dialup for many years.
    It would be very nice if browsers had plugins or options in order to simulate slow dialup connections.

  5. Allan Hanson wrote on August 31st, 2011 at 07:52:

    Chris Heilmann why is it that the Mozilla Firefox browser can not see an embed html page with in an html5 page? Why is the Firefox browser looking for a plug-in? Why can’t it see the extension .html and open the page? This is basic and simple stuff when I come to html5. The ability to embed published html page together from anywhere out on the World Wide Web creating an organic rich tapestry. alhanson.com

  6. John Foliot wrote on August 31st, 2011 at 08:56:

    @Paul – I’ve not seen any recommendations that suggest that b, i or small have any semantic value for AT, because, well, they don’t – those stylings should be rightfully moved to CSS. On the other hand strong and em (emphasis) DO have some semantic values – you can say something with emphasis, but it’s pretty hard to say it with italic; small is a visual representation only, that has no audio equivalent that I know of.

    As for banner and contentinfo: both ARIA roles should be equal to the landmark elements of header and footer.

    Per the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#contentinfo), aria-role=”contentinfo” usually contains “Examples of information included in this region of the page are copyrights and links to privacy statements.” For banner, the spec states: “A region that contains mostly site-oriented content, rather than page-specific content.”

    I am curious however – where are you deriving that conformance information?

    A review of the Draft spec (http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/the-footer-element.html#the-footer-element) makes no such suggestion, and AFAIK both the footer element and the aria-role=”contentinfo” are intended to map to the same landmark roles; ditto for header/banner (http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html) If you are seeing or are aware of otherwise, then I think a bug should be filed.

    Cheers!

  7. fpiat wrote on August 31st, 2011 at 11:20:

    ” 6) …. that there seems to be a disconnect between what people show on stage at conferences and what people can use these days in their day-to-day jobs. Do you think we should remedy this?”

    I can’t figure that you ask this question! The response is so evident for people who try to live from their daily work and must pass time on searching what they can use that is supported with the same manner by the browsers. The situation is more awfull than in 1995 when I began with the web (after 10 years in “traditional” development). I know that you will respond “stop complaining, use polyfills”. For me it’s not a solution, it is just another piece in the puzzle, another crutch for a man without arms. Vendor prefixe are a shame. It’s as if the specs existed in no way. Who can really think that in 1 or 2 years when the specs will be finished we strip all this shit from our css files.
    Yes we need things that are usuable and no “look what can be done”. When you are facing someone who says “this could be done, I have seen a demo” it’s a huge waste of time of explaining “yes, but this is only a demo, a proof of concept, and that work only with FF (or Chrome or IE or Opera)”. Finally you are seen as somebody who has no capacities.

    An very important point was raised by Divya Manian : the fact that some people in the world live in areas with poor internet connections. I’m involved in e-learning with this kind of person (Africa, South America, …) and nothing is proposed for resolving the dificulties of delivering content. For example the audio and video tags are absolutely of no concern, but a better offline storage will be really appreciated.

    I must confess (dear evangelist) that I’m impressed by the fact that you begin to reconsider your point of view about “best practises” and ask you questions about the best way of helping us. So thank you.

    1. Divya wrote on August 31st, 2011 at 15:17:

      I think it is a relevant question to ask because it is this kind of bubble we need to burst :)

      Also, fpiat, the world of web development has changed quite a bit since 2000. In 2000, the kind of problems we faced were a bit more understandable (but equally hard) but nothing compared to what we want out of a browser now. Browsers and web developers are equally scratching their heads to figure out how to make it all work.

      Like it or not, browsers have become the one true solution for being globally connected, and we are getting close to getting features that would make it happen but not yet. But then again, this means steep learning curves for current web devs to learn about all the new features that are getting added to make browsers work as better devices for communication (real time streaming, gaming, media manipulation, etc).

      I really have no solution to how we bridge the gap between areas of weak internet connections, low penetration of modern browsers to the kind of pace we see in the Bay area. Fpiat do you have any suggestions? I would definitely love to do what I can to get that gap closer and find solutions that would work. Opera already does a lot with Opera Mini and Turbo mode, but more could definitely be done (especially for encouraging standards development and latest technology).

  8. Allan Hanson wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 05:57:

    Divya @ Opera can embed and an html with in a html5 page. The standards that need to be worked on is how Opera handles the Cache Manifest for off line use.

    John @ maybe you should get out more. Start writing in html5! If you start embedding html text pages with in html5 pages you will figure out why the htnl5 tags are the way they are. It is a a no Brain-er!

    fpiat @ I don’t think Mini and Turbo mode will really help much, because for the third world it is up to how the web designer/programmer writes the code. “Simple clean html5 with limited JS with a working off line Cache Manifest”

  9. John Foliot wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 06:34:

    @Allan – I have no idea what you are referring to; I have been authoring HTML5 content for some time now (as well as being actively involved in the Standards process) and fully understand what the ‘tags’ (elements) are and do.

    Bold, Italic and Small are all essentially presentational, and there is *no* semantic value of those in-line elements passed to Adaptive Technology at this time – and in some instances likely never will:

    “The b element represents a span of text to which attention is being drawn for utilitarian purposes without conveying any extra importance and with no implication of an alternate voice or mood…” http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/the-b-element.html#the-b-element

    “The small element does not “de-emphasize” or lower the importance of text emphasized by the em element or marked as important with the strong element.” http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/the-small-element.html#the-small-element

    While these elements remain in HTML5 for ‘legacy’ reasons, the majority of Accessibility Advocates that I know actively discourage the use of these elements today, in favor of either strong or em, or through the use of CSS (via font-size or font-weight).

    Cheers!

  10. Allan Hanson wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 07:05:

    In my vision, a barefoot nine year old boy in the third world begins his journey to a town with a satellite. He is carrying his village’s Chrome Book type 3 pad with second solid sate hard drive for utilities and copy of OS, and third solid state hard drive for cache manifest back up. After taking care of business, He connects to the satellite and looks at the world, and as he does everything he sees is collected to the catch manifest to be carried back to his village. Lastly he goes to an online school and caches dynamic PDF objects for lessons on how to read. Back at his village under the yellow glow of a Kerosene lamp He and his friends peer in to the wonder of the computer screen in the excitement they see in the world about them. Power by an old car battery and charged through a solar panel in the day. It only takes time and a few pennies to help people help them selves and change the world about us.

  11. Allan Hanson wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 10:47:

    John what i am referring to is you and your friends are the problem! You came here to Bully Paul. Did you really read the links you posted? I think not! Just because you put html5 tags at the beginning and end of you page doesn’t mean you witting in html5. The Bold, Italic and Small embed the formatting into the page so when you cut copy and past a paragraph the formatting goes with the text. It reduces having to call a huge CSS from the server. It speeds up how fast the browser can spit the text out on the page.

    Fpial people like John and his friends have no respect for what came before them. He only concerned with what is semantic standard is. He is not paying an attention to the amount of bits and bytes are being sent over the connection. B and i are only one byte and strong is six bytes.

  12. Paul Irish wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 10:57:

    Allan, chill bro. ♡

  13. Paul Irish wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 11:12:

    John,
    on strong/em being treated same as span, I’m looking at: http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aapi/#api-role

    and header/footer getting no role: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/content-models.html#wai-aria ..
    Looking at Steven’s proposal that you linked, it matches what’s in the HTML5 spec there, specifying no default implied ARIA semantic for either header or footer, just putting constraints on the available roles authors can use.

    So what do you think? :/

  14. John Foliot wrote on September 1st, 2011 at 13:37:

    Hi Allan,

    With no disrespect to you, I am fully aware of what “came before”, because my friend, I was there then too.

    I know Paul and we have talked many times before. I was *not* trying to bully him, I was engaging in what I hoped would be useful and informative dialog that others might learn from – this is why I usually include links in all my responses, emails, etc. I am pretty sure that Paul took it that way, and if he was offended by what I wrote, then I apologize to Paul.

    I have been working as an accessibility specialist and advocate now for over a decade, and I reiterate that small, b and i provide visual formatting for sighted users, but no semantic information is being conveyed to non-sighted users (a point further confirmed by the links I pointed to – did *you* read them?) This is a problem; further it is a problem that need not be. Take that as you will – I am not trying to force you (or anyone else reading this) to do one thing or the other, I am simply pointing out that these presentational elements are just that, presentational with no semantic value being conveyed to screen readers. etc.

    You dream of the little 3rd-world barefoot boy having access to the riches of the web: my dream is that all users, including disabled users, have that same access, and that they too can fully understand what we as content authors are posting to the web. Semantics is the best bet we have in delivering on that dream to non-sighted users, and I hope that others reading this will listen and understand that, and perhaps improve their skills to insure an inclusive web. You of course are free to ignore what I offer as advice, and I will not be offended by that – I will however continue to try and teach and share as best I can, whenever I can, and wherever I can.

    ’nuff said. Peace out!

    JF

  15. Allan Hanson wrote on September 2nd, 2011 at 19:53:

    The people I was referring to are dead and can’t speak for them selves. Changing inline tags that go between the tag from one letter to multi-letters is total stupid and completely insane. So what next, change tag to the tag? More mindless stuff! The following is a string replace array written in PhP. See how nicely the inline one letter tags go into the array. The array is called to the loading into web page like the JS and CSS from the local cache. Next the bars and header and footer are load from the local cache in to the web page. Lastly the Main body text is queried from the SQL data base and spit in to the via html markup language. This is how Buckminster Fuller would design a web site. How Henry Ford built an assembly line, with interchangeable parts. When the web sites first page loads in the browser, the parts need to construct the remaining pages of the web site is ready load in the local cache of the client’s computer. Thus you can get a dial-up connection to scream like a T1 and a satellite connection to load a page before the connection ramps up to speed. You are moving the content of the web site, as text from the data base – like buzz and tweets. I have an example of this on line as http://helpswtc.com/index.php you can go there and see this in action.

    $text= str_replace(array(‘[p]’), ”, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/p]’), ”, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[b]’), ‘‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/b]’), ‘
    ‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[i]’), ‘‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/i]’), ‘
    ‘, $text);

    $text= str_replace(array(‘[p]’), ”, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/p]’), ”, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[b]’), ‘‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/b]’), ‘
    ‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[i]’), ‘‘, $text);
    $text= str_replace(array(‘[/i]’), ‘
    ‘, $text);

    Text written for importing in to the database (to be spit out in html)

    [p][b]The red fox[/b][i]jumped[/i]over the fence.[/p]

    Html5 can be design to work much in the same way using the Cache Manifest as using a server based data base to increase speed and reduce redundant traffic. Chrome-Book needs two more SD slots for removable CD cards – mount points for Cache Manifest off line stored Cache which up dates when on line.

    I still use note pad as a text editor
    Allan

  16. Allan Hanson wrote on September 2nd, 2011 at 20:02:

    Oh well that didn’t come out – anyway the html tags go after the variables used in the string replace array.

  17. Thierry Koblentz wrote on September 3rd, 2011 at 09:49:

    @ John

    > While these elements remain in HTML5 for ‘legacy’ reasons,
    > the majority of Accessibility Advocates that I know actively
    > discourage the use of these elements today, in favor of either
    > strong or em, or through the use of CSS (via font-size or font-weight).

    Imho, I think these elements should be used in lieu of styled spans as User Agents can style their content without the support of authors’ style sheets.

    Why discouraging their use? The style in which they render content is valuable for sighted users. For example “the i element […] for which the conventional typographic presentation is italic text; for example, a taxonomic designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another language, a thought, or a ship name.”

    So I’d say [i]Titanic[/i] is a better choice than [em]Titanic[/em] or [span style=”font-style:italic”]Titanic[/span]

    I don’t agree with Allan though about using [b] over [strong] “because it saves bytes”.

    1. John Foliot wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 08:56:

      Theirry,

      You’ve answered your own question: “…conventional typographic presentation…”, as indeed italicized text is presentational to the sighted user, conveying, for example, “…a taxonomic designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another language, (or) a thought…”. How do you convey that same conceptual understanding to a non-sighted user?

      I would suggest that perhaps in all of these instances using the dfn element, styled to visually render as italics, would probably be a better choice; it conveys both a visual difference to sighted users, but provides a mechanism for non-sighted users to none-the-less be exposed to the &ltl;dfn title=”essence or shape of an entity’s complete form” lang=”ger”>Gestalt&ltl;/dfn> of the italicized text.

      1. John Foliot wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 08:58:

        (1 “L” too many…)

        …but provides a mechanism for non-sighted users to none-the-less be exposed to the <dfn title=”essence or shape of an entity’s complete form” lang=”ger”>Gestalt</dfn> of the italicized text.

      2. Thierry Koblentz wrote on September 7th, 2011 at 18:28:

        @John

        > How do you convey that same conceptual
        > understanding to a non-sighted user?

        Who said this should be conveyed to a non-sighted user?
        In a previous comment you said:

        > […] Accessibility Advocates that I know actively
        > discourage the use of these elements today, in
        > favor of either strong or em, or through the use
        > of CSS (via font-size or font-weight).

        If you consider those are purely presentational (since you suggest that authors should use CSS properties instead) then why should we expose that stylistic presentation to non-sighted users when it is done via [b] or [i] but not when it is done via font-weight or font-style?

        In any case, if we think such styling should be conveyed, I’d say it is the responsibility of the browser to do so, not the author. After all, why should we do more for [b] than we do for [strong].

        @Allan

        > When my friends and I sent the
        > first paragraph over telephone

        That’s context, isn’t?

  18. Allan Hanson wrote on September 5th, 2011 at 12:54:

    [p][b]Thierry Koblentz[/b] thanks for allowing me the opportunity to be part of your space on the Internet. Thank you for supporting the idea: [blockquote][i] I think these elements should be used in lieu of styled spans as User Agents can style their content without the support of authors’ style sheets.[/i][/blockquote] When one is putting text into a data field of a database or web base text box the number of character spaces is limited. For Example, if you are an undercover reporter embed in the Arab Spring; not only do you find your self running for your life; but also, sending you story one paragraph at a time over what limited bandwidth you can fine. The embedded formatting insures the readers see the story the way the reporter wrote it on the front line. The paragraph may pass through a few handlers before it reaches its published destination on the web. A handler could be an Arab child who’s parents are dead, can’t read English, and only knows how to copy, paste and send.[/p]

    [p][b]Thierry[/b] the reason I posted to your[i] hacks.mozilla.org[i] is why FF does not recognize the [embed] tag? Both Chrome and Opera now recognize[i] somepage.html[i] as an object. Some people in their arm chairs, in their Ivory Towers, have cake for breakfast expect to hijack html5 when there is a revolution going on. The inline old legacy elements are going to become part of html5; not for legacy reasons, but more practical reasons, and then probability expanded. The legacy elements are used in pages that can be embed with the [embed] tag into [header][footer] [article] [aside] much like frames are used. Paul’s point is the water is all ready over the dam. And thus, moving on, the cache manifest and how it works with the browser is a topic that needs attention[/p]

  19. Allan Hanson wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 02:59:

    [p][b]Thierry[/b]I am trying to make a case for an html short hand based on legacy tags and elements. A short hand for creating html word documents with embedded formatting. This embedded page is an example. A document that is one or two pages in length with stand alone paragraph formatting. If you click on view source you can see some of my problems. A string of special characters is not pretty and wastes valuable space.[/p]

  20. Thierry Koblentz wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 07:58:

    @Allan I see your point, but as Karl says making sense is a matter of context..

    1. Allan Hanson wrote on September 6th, 2011 at 10:42:

      [p][b]Thierry[/b]Karl is responding to Paul Irish and he doesn’t know who is! If one would view the code of Google+ one could see the context Paul applies “Real World” to. It is the environment he is working in. When my friends and I sent the first paragraph over telephone lines we didn’t have any “Brain Police” telling us what we can and can not do.[/p]

  21. Allan Hanson wrote on September 8th, 2011 at 22:21:

    The HTML5 markup language has to make all parties happy! The last hurdle HTML5 has to clear is the military and the intelligence community and the way John and his friend are proposing – it never going to make it. Thus it is never going to be finalized! The catch 22 situation is they are going to tell you how they want it, because it is top secret and they are expected to take the secret to the grave with them.

  22. Allan Hanson wrote on September 18th, 2011 at 07:01:

    Using this discussion as a jumping off point I created an example in html5 with the possibilities my position represents. The embed page with in a page with inline tags.

    It can be found here: http://www.alhanson.com/alhanson/tabfive/Fd05Mn05.html

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